Giving Power To Business Owners

Jacquelyn Jackson 0:47

Welcome to another show of Giving Power to the Business Owner Series. I'm your host, Jacqueline Jackson. This series, GPBO, is all about equipping, evaluating, and empowering business owners with the tools, strategies, and mindset needed to take control of their vision and build sustainable success. Here we focus on real conversations, practical insights, and the kind of knowledge that moves you from working in your business to truly owning it. GPO stands for more than just a title. It represents giving business owners clarity and their direction, providing practical strategies for growth and scalability, open access to expert knowledge and lived experience, building confidence to lead, decide, and execute with purpose, creating a space where business owners feel seen, supported, and empowered. This is where business meets ownership and ownership meets power. Now let's get in today's conversation. Today's guest is Joe Killinger, a commercial real estate veteran, investor, founder who has spent decades helping shape deals, scale businesses, and navigate the real estate market at a high level. Joe brings a rare mix of brokerage experience, operator insight, and entrepreneur perspective, which makes him the perfect guest to talk about what it really takes to grow in real estate, secure the capital to keep moving forward. We are excited to have him today, and we want to welcome him to our show. Welcome to our show, Joe. Thank you, Jacqueline. Thank you for having me on. All right, we're looking forward. We want to get in and see, we gave you a nice little background of how we feel about you and what we found out about you. And we thank you so much. Because I know you're busy, but I'm just glad you squeezed us in to kind of give us some little insight of what you have. So thank you

From Farm Auctions To Brokerage

Jacquelyn Jackson 2:45

so much for getting in and doing that for us. All right. Let's go start off. The first question we have for you is what first pulled you into the commercial real estate and how did that evolve your career basically from there?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Well, how long you got? I don't know how long this show is, but I'll make it. I'll give you the short version. How about that? So my I grew up on a farm in central Nebraska, and my father was doing uh real estate auctions. Well, he actually started off doing just auction. He started off with you know farm equipment, uh animals in a sale barn, then he ended up getting into real estate. And I didn't care about all that auction stuff, but the real estate stuff, for some reason, as a kid, I just was watching him and I learned I go, okay, I love this. I love uh everything about it. You know, he was mostly focused on farmland. We're uh I'm central Nebraska, so mostly farmland. Went to college, and this company called Wood Brothers Realty or Woods Brothers Realty out of Lincoln, Nebraska, Pace Woods Jr. hired me. I mean, Jaclyn, if you'd have seen me, you'd thought I was 12 years old. I don't know why he gave me a chance, but he did. And um, I got that lecture of like, hey, you do you believe you're a good person, Joe? And I said, Yeah, I think so. And he throws the telephone book down and goes, These people need to understand that when you're trying to take care of their real estate business. So start calling. I'm like, okay. Fortunately, a uh some older person in the office was there and gave me a lot of hindsight and mentoring, and um, it really helped a lot. So uh shout out to Mimi Cotton and all those people at Wood Brothers Realty in Lincoln, Nebraska, um in the country club plaza area. It was uh, but I just I just fell in love with it. It was just something I loved. I love the way you could change an area, bringing new people into it. Um, but I ended up uh my family ended up losing the farm, so I ended up having to move to California. And but I knew that I was going to be in real estate. So as soon as I could afford it, I got my real estate license. And uh the rest is pretty much history.

Jacquelyn Jackson 4:53

Pretty much history. It sure is, and we are glad you got that history. All right, so you have been in the industry in the industry for decades, pretty much, you know what I'm saying. For a while, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Pre-gray hair.

Jacquelyn Jackson 5:08

Yeah. So if

When Data Stops Being The Edge

Jacquelyn Jackson 5:10

you would tell our audience, what do you think has changed the most in the commercial real estate industry?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Oh, yeah, it's not the same. On the brokerage side, it's when I got in, um, you know, you just picked up the phone and started calling people. And but the brokers controlled all the information back then, keep in mind. So there was no MLS, there was no co-star, there was no loop net, nothing. It was all on paper, right? So if you wanted something, you actually had to call a broker and ask them. So the brokers controlled the data. And that was how I started. Whereas now everybody knows everything going on. You you've got a client, there's a good chance they know what they're talking about before they call you. So you better be up on your market, your asset class net marketplace before you pick up that phone and answer it. Because if a client knows more than you, you got a problem.

Jacquelyn Jackson 6:03

Right, right. You are so true. So, what's one of the um you think investors and business owners uh misunderstanding about getting deals

Funding Prep And The Landlord Mindset

Jacquelyn Jackson 6:12

funded? What is one of the most you think?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

You know, and that's I just had this talk with an agent the other day. Is we get so many calls, Jacqueline. It's not even people go, hey, I want to open this business. You know, typically it's a restaurant, right? They want to launch a restaurant or a retail store and or start this new business. And they haven't even thought about their financing yet. They haven't thought about how they're gonna fund it. And so I don't know if it's a lack of, I think there just needs to be more knowledge about this, more education on it. Um, I don't know how, but now there are a lot of, as you're well aware, your competition, there's a lot of fraudsters out there, right? And so I think people are a little bit nervous, but um, you know, find a good place to really get your numbers put together before you eat because every owner of real estate, and this is a I have this talk with a lot of newer people who are starting a business. You've got to understand, you got to come from the owner of the real estate's mindset because they're thinking, okay, I want to get somebody in here that's gonna be long term. I don't want to put somebody in there that's maybe gonna make it. They want to see your financials, they want to see that you got funding, and can you blame them? You're taking over their real estate. And and you and if you don't make it, now they got to go out and get you out and start over again. So you've just got to be in the mindset of uh really think about what the landlord really needs and what should your funding look like.

Jacquelyn Jackson 7:46

Exactly. So, and with now with AI and so much technology out of here, like you said, there's no reason for you to come unprepared. You know what I'm saying? It's really not. It's compared to having to go to the brokers years ago, decade decades ago, we had to go to the broker to get the information. So you basically say it's no reason. So we we we have to do better.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

And I and I love well, and I also think the brokerage community, I get so many brokers, they're afraid to ask that person that wants to open that new business for their financials. I'm like, What? Yeah, I'm like, why would you not ask for them? They go, but it's so personal. I go, Yeah, it is, it's very personal. I want to see, you know, tax returns, I want to see your money, I want to see your bank statements, I want to see all that. You know, if you've got funding, where is it and who's it through and what's the process? You gotta have all that put together. And a lot of brokers are afraid to uh ask for that right off the bat.

Jacquelyn Jackson 8:39

Now, this

Picking Deals By Profit Targets

Jacquelyn Jackson 8:40

probably gonna this question is gonna probably have a lead off of what you just said. So when you look at a deal, what is the biggest signs that's strong enough for you to pursue? I'm for sure. You're gonna start having it.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

I don't really do deals, I operate our company. So we have multiple companies that in this website uh that I operate too for everybody. Um, you know, I tell our agents, if you're gonna make it, it depends on your market. Now, if you're in Kansas, this is not gonna sound good, but I tell our agents if you're not putting in your pocket $12,000 to $15,000 per transaction, I would refer it out to a new agent, you know, and let them get the education. But now, if you're in a different market, you know, that's you got to adjust for your marketplace. I mean, we're looking at markets that are, you know, five, six, seven dollars a square foot or monthly. And so, you know, you get into some other places and it's not near that high. So really just know how much you want to make in your pocket per transaction, is what I tell our agents and focus on those deals.

Jacquelyn Jackson 9:41

So, so those are the type of deals. So when you look at a deal, you look at what you can make off the deal, determine I keep it, or you say it to somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, exactly. And well, you can work it backward from there. So if I'm gonna work it, that means it's gotta be I need to have X amount of uh lease, um, you know, ninety hundred thousand dollars a year annually, uh, and then work it because so you want to work it backward off of what you want to pocket, and then you figure out how big of a deal you're gonna have to do to make that money. Okay, gotcha.

Jacquelyn Jackson 10:11

All right, setting goals basically. That sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Some agents don't. Some agents just take every deal. You know, we had a we had a restaurant broker years ago, and uh he was one of the top restaurant brokers, and he would do over 20 deals a year, and he was making less than $120,000 a year. So that's a lot of work for that kind of money. Yeah, sure. Yeah, think about that. You take after expenses and taxes. So that's why I think it's so important to really know what you're doing and really do that, know your numbers. Uh, everybody'll tell you know your numbers.

Jacquelyn Jackson 10:40

Right, exactly. So let me ask you this how important do you think it is uh the credibility and track worker when it comes to raising capital? How important do you think that really is?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

You know, we went through a phase, and this is I watched it and it was painful to watch when COVID was going. You saw all these people on social media talking about how they've raised money, how they're out buying apartment buildings, how they're getting these kind of numbers. And we own we also own a uh a mortgage company, a commercial real estate mortgage company based out of Dallas, actually, out of Texas. And um, so I'm talking to our partner there. I said, I do you see this? He goes, Oh yeah, I'm following it too. He goes, I said, Have you looked at any of the deals? He goes, Oh yeah, they send them over. He goes, Joe, when interest rates go up, which they will, these guys are gonna give these properties back to the bank. And so we watched it, and you know, these guys were it's you gotta watch out for these kind of people, but raising that kind of money is so important, but also looking long term. You gotta be looking down the road. You can't be looking as an investor. If you're going into something, you want to make sure where this money is coming from and um is it gonna is it gonna be there down the road?

Jacquelyn Jackson 11:58

Right. That makes sense, a lot of sense. So, what's your advice to uh someone that's trying to scale from like

Scaling Lessons And Smart Value Adds

Jacquelyn Jackson 12:05

one deal to well just trying to grow their portfolio? What is your advice to someone that's going from one to growing?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

That's I did. I did that. Started off with one, and uh you know, I had a home run on our first one. This is probably the worst thing you can do. Had a home run on the first one. So we thought we were really sophisticated investors, and that second one handed us our ass.

unknown 12:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

I mean, handed it to us. We ended up making money on the sale, but it was a three-story walk-up apartment building in Koreatown. Okay, gang area, which is we didn't have a problem with that. Our first one's in the gang area, too. Performed very well. But this second one, three-story walk-up, we didn't realize that how how hard it was going to be to keep that third story in that market leased out. Can you imagine carrying groceries up three flights of stairs?

Jacquelyn Jackson 12:56

Oh largely Hispanic community.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yeah, terrible, terrible. And so, yeah, we had to heavily dis. I mean, the building was it needed work, but it was beautiful. The apartments were massive. I mean, they were gorgeous. 1950s construction, all the detail, and excuse me, 1930s construction was beautiful, and uh, but yeah, that third floor, and then just the maintenance on the property. We were doing a lot of ourselves. So um, but for as far as scaling, you know, really make sure your your first few properties, if you're starting to scale, are nearby. You know, don't be getting you. I talked to a guy that he was looking at his second property is three hours away. I'm like, three hours away. So you're gonna spend six hours going to and from your property? I'm like, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So geographically, be very smart about it. Just because another deal doesn't mean you're gonna make more money. Right. Make sure that the asset you have right now is performing at peak performance. And I sit and say that, and people go, Well, of course it's performing at peak performance. I said, Okay, is there any way you could be making more money? They go, No, I'm doing everything I can. I said, Okay, do you have any accent walls? What's an accent wall? I said this one gets them every time. Is there's a uh we what we would do is we buy five different uh five-gallon buckets of different colored paint that we could do in an apartment built, in an off or uh apartment, and we give the offering when somebody would come in to lease an apartment and say, Listen, if you want an accent wall, it's an extra $25 a month, and you can pick one of these five, and you know, we'll paint it for you, and you'll have something different than everybody else in the building. Well, not never not everybody else, but it'll be your particular and people would sign up for that all the time. I said, So, okay. I said, How about do you have covered parking on your property? Uh no, it's all open, no cover. I said, Well, maybe what you should do is look at maybe putting in car ports and charge an extra $50 or $75 a month because then I showed them the costs on it. So they hadn't looked at all avenues. They had not looked at there's so many ways you can make more money on some of these uh assets before you move on to the second one. And make sure you're really ready because you and that was in multifamily. Obviously, it's different when you're doing retail or and but um but just make sure you're really ready to take on that next that next phase and make sure the fundamentals are all in place.

Jacquelyn Jackson 15:24

Okay,

What Is Working In Today’s Markets

Jacquelyn Jackson 15:25

we do it. All right, thank you. So, what do you see the biggest commercial um opportunities right now in real estate? What do you see?

SPEAKER_02 15:33

You know, this is where I always get careful when I get these questions because everything in real estate is so local, right? I mean I'm in a high rise in Brentwood, California right now. Now, if I take this building and I move it half a mile down, I'm not in Brentwood anymore. So I'm gonna be in a completely different market, and so it's gonna be less. And so you you've got to really think about the market you're in, and that's why real estate is so local. But in this area, you're seeing retail is just it's doing very, very well right now. Retail is really well. Um, we're seeing industrials really starting to pick up an office, you know, there's been a lot of office conversion, it's really starting to pick up, right? As far as leasing goes, it's really starting to pick up. But retail investments and retail leasing has been super strong.

Jacquelyn Jackson 16:19

So let me ask you this. So, what do you mean when you say doing well? What are you saying that you all are making more money, you get more occupancy? What do you mean when you say it's doing well?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

More deals have come on place, we'll be able to place a lot more, a lot more um sellers and tenants or buyers and tenants.

Jacquelyn Jackson 16:35

Okay, that's what it is. I got you. Okay, that makes sense. All right, so so let me ask you this the role in marketing or personal branding, does it play in

Marketing With AI Plus Street Level Prospecting

Jacquelyn Jackson 16:45

helping, you know, with real estate uh professionals? Do you think they brand you know, they're marketing?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Absolutely. So um I'm gonna give a plug to uh something I belong to. It's called the Commercial Real Estate Influencer Summit. Um, CR CREI summit.com. It's all about marketing yourself. It's it's 150 of the top brokers around the country get together. This year it's in Savannah in September, um, worth the money to go learn. Because, you know, right now our company, uh so one of our companies is Commercial Brokers International. And uh we're a boutique, boutique is commercial real estate brokerage firm. And um we probably get one to two leads per week uh from Chat GPT or any of the AI platforms, you know. So it works. You know, we put content out on a daily basis. We ask our agents to put content out as much as they can because here's the thing. So it used to be like, you know, you did your cold calls and you know you waited for people to call you back, or you went out and did the market. Now you can you can go out and do you so you do inbound and outbound. So outbound with cold calling and all that good stuff. Inbound, you want people to call you. First of all, they close at a much higher rate than outbound. You can create content, get people to call you. It needs to be content based around your asset class and your marketplace, and you need to be putting that out on a regular basis because now with AI, AI, somebody'll go on AI, they'll go, okay, AI, um, I want a commercial broker in this market. And AI goes out there and searches, it finds people in that marketplace. It goes, oh, here's Joe. He's been putting content out, so he's a professional in that marketplace, he's an authority figure. Contact him. So that gets my information out there, people start calling me. So, but you gotta, you know, there's answer engine optim uh uh optimization, and there's SEO, you gotta understand all that stuff, and you can really get ahead of a lot of people in this industry because most people aren't doing it. Most commercial real estate agents are not doing it. I was just out yesterday with uh one of our newer agents, and we do what we call a block program. And that is you go in, you you've got a it's a retail agent, she does retail leasing in Santa Monica, she goes into each store, she picks three blocks, she walks either side of the street, she goes into each store, introduces herself, leaves a lead behind and her business card, gets to know them, and then just go it each each retail store she goes into, introduces herself. No sales, it's just strictly hi, I'm Teresa, I'm in the market, I live right down the street. And lo and behold, she got business from that. You know how many people actually are going out and do that in r in retail in our market in LA? I don't know of any other brokerages that do that, right? But it's so and she's got the right, yeah. I mean, it depends on the personality too, right? If I go do it, uh probably not gonna be near as good as Teresa because she's got the more bubbly personality, right?

Avoiding Fast Growth Mistakes And Forecasting

SPEAKER_02 19:45

But it works, you know.

Jacquelyn Jackson 19:46

So okay, so let me mention this. What's some of the common mistakes you see investors do uh when they try and grow or try to grow too fast?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Well, that's the number one. They try and grow too damn fast when they need to absorb a lot. Um, not getting the right loans. Uh you see a lot of people not getting the right uh support behind them. You know, you've got to make sure you've got the right money behind them because they're in they're your partner. That that bank or that lender, that they're your partner. You want to make sure you're getting the right people that you're working with. And um, it's very, very important. But also make sure you understand the asset class because I got had a guy come in here the other day, because I want to do retail. And he's done he's done multifamily all around California for so long. I said, Okay, um, I get that. It's just a little hard to find right now, but uh let's see what we can do. And I'm talking to him about it and you know, understanding the leases, understanding, you know, he didn't really have a grasp of uh the leases and the way they worked, um, you know, commonary maintenance fees on an office deal he was looking at. He was all over the place. And and so, but I was it was you really want to make sure you know your asset class, you want to make sure you've got the right partners. Um it's it's key. Understanding those leases are key.

Jacquelyn Jackson 21:09

Right. You got that right. So I appreciate you telling them that. So let me ask you this. So if you had to start all over today, okay, what would you focus on first to be a momentum in real estate?

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I love you know, I'm in single tenant net lease right now, but if you're starting off, you know, it takes a good amount of capital to get started now. But retail uh retail on a signalized intersection with good tenants, and you know, that's really it and I really want to be signalized intersection, great curb appeal, um, or I can make it great curb appeal.

Jacquelyn Jackson 21:45

Okay, okay, let's stop. Now, okay, notice what you said. I said if you were starting over today, do you think somebody will give you that type of deal on day one? Let's talk about that. Because if you want to Experience of what you have. Yeah, they're gonna do you, but we're talking about Johnny B. Somebody new. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

So it's yeah, I mean you can I'm talking about I'm not talking about 10 units in a in a retail building. I'm talking about like two. Right. So that's what I'm saying.

Jacquelyn Jackson 22:14

Give me a give us that's somebody in here saying, give us something for a person for Bobby who doesn't have a clue because that's what we know.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

So we'll probably invest right now that's new, and that that's what they're gonna do. They're gonna look for a retail tenant building or retail building, okay, signalized intersection, if they can get it, because here in California there's not very many. If not, they will take just a regular corner. Um, but they just want to find good, solid tenants. Um, you know, so and they've got some cash. It's a husband and wife, they're just getting started. They had Airbnbs and they sold some of them. Now, if you're going to, if you don't have a lot of cash, if you're new and you don't have a lot of cash, then I would start off with some small multifamily right in your area, if you can, you know, just a couple units to really cut your teeth in it, get it, or or invest in a real estate investment trust and read everything they, you know, have them send you all the documents and good idea, really learn how the whole process is done through that. Because, you know, back to when COVID was going and these guys were taking these investors, taking these investors' money off Twitter, and these loans were terrible. I mean, I'm like, you people, you guys need to do some background on this guy. He's new to this industry. And so a real estate investment trust, you got SEC, you got all these people watching it. It's a little less risky.

Jacquelyn Jackson 23:40

Thank you. Sorry about that. That is exactly what that is when you would mention those trusts. I put we believe in them, I use them, and you're correct. It's a great way for you to learn without obligating as much time you would as an actual landlord or you know, the management team.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

And when you get the documents sent to you, read them cover to cover, understand them. If you and if you don't find somebody or go into Chat GPT or any of the and have it break it down for you. That's the beauty of this AI stuff right now, right? You can really break this stuff down.

Jacquelyn Jackson 24:11

So yes, they can see it. All right. So he's talking about something that you we're not stock market guys, we're just saying that's what you can go look into and being a part of.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

That's always you could put a hundred bucks in there and sit back and just start learning or whatever the price is.

Jacquelyn Jackson 24:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I totally agree with that. So, with this real estate game, what do you see right now where we're going? Where do you see us going right now?

SPEAKER_02 24:35

You know, uh, so I'm very fortunate because we've got our brokerage here in LA. I also own the commercial real estate affiliate network. It's 44 of commercial real estate brokerage firms around the country. So I get a lot of insight of what's going on. Um, you know, it depends on the market. I mean, uh, Ohio right now is on fire with retail. I just it just seems like this company to uh Nook or uh anchor retail, it just seems like every day they're posting about a new closing they've got, and they're an incredible company. But um, you know, retail is still going pretty strong. Uh industrial in some markets is going pretty strong. Um multifamily, you know, here's the thing is you got a lot of investors going getting into multifamily. They're not looking at five, 10 years down the road. And I'm looking where I live in Santa Monica, and we've got just one building has 265 units that are they're getting ready to break ground on. Right across the street is another 265. Uh, right down the street, even not even three blocks away, is another couple hundred units going up. It's all mixed-use retail. And we've got uh in Santa Monica, I don't remember the number of units that have gone up, but we've got brand new buildings that are half half full right now. And so you've got all this coming on the market, and you've got empty buildings sitting there, all of it brand new. So, what's gonna happen there? Prices are gonna have to come down, you know. So, and that's gonna affect multifamily investments in that area, not just those buildings, but everybody every place else because rents are gonna go down.

Jacquelyn Jackson 26:05

Right. So, you were saying looking at five years, they didn't think about or look at the plan, the city plan, let all this stuff build up. And now you gonna have more apartments than you're gonna have.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

A lot more apartments, a lot more opportunities. It's gonna be a renter's heaven down there because they're gonna have to. I mean, they're gonna drop the lease, drop the rent down. Now they're gonna have to drop. And a lot of investors are not looking, they're thinking about right now. You know, I want this year, and I'm like, you better be, you've got to be forecasting.

Free Resources And Ways To Connect

SPEAKER_02 26:30

You gotta forecast your income and your investment income.

Jacquelyn Jackson 26:34

So, what can you offer our audience for them getting in contact with you? What could they get from you? You know, if you would let us know how they can do that, how that's benefiting.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

You bet. So, as we mentioned earlier, I I launch commercial real estate uh companies. And so I've got commercial brokers international, I've got the commercial real estate affiliate network, um, all of them, they're they're growing. Oh, and icon capital advisors. So I have this website behind me, joekillinger.co. On that is if you want to learn in pretty much anything about real estate, I've got booklets on there. Everything is for free on there. I'm not, there's not, it's not a moneymaker. Uh, if you want books uh that are recommended by anybody in real estate, we've got them on there. There's a booklet, your first 90 days in commercial real estate, or if you want to build a team in commercial real estate. There's it goes to my YouTube channel that's under Joe Killinger. Everything's under Joe Killinger. Social media, I kept it pretty easy. And um, it's all there. And or you can just email me at joe at joekillinger.co. Happy to help.

Jacquelyn Jackson 27:36

Okay, great. So you also we have that resource, and we're gonna have them also on our partnership page, www.tdj equitylc.net, uh, referral partners. You'll actually get to see him there, which should link you straight to his website, guys, because he does have a lot of information and uh a lot of things for us that we can use if you're in it in the real estate business, you want to grow the real estate business, you want to properly know how to do it. And he, like you said, he has I've been to that site. It's amazing the stuff he has out there. There's a lot of free stuff out there, but he's also available if you all need that more in-depth help, and that's what's great. He has a wonderful team working with them. So, uh, Joe, we want to uh thank you so much for being part of our show. If it's anything you would like to tell our audience, we'll give you that chance to say that before we leave.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

No, just please check out the uh content that we put out, give us a follow and uh give us a like and do check out the YouTube channel. We put a lot of content out. I think in the next couple days, um, how we built the commercial real estate affiliate network, and there's content on there about being a real estate investor, real estate broker, it's all there for free.

Jacquelyn Jackson 28:44

All right, all right. Well, thank you. Y'all have heard it from the Joe Pillinger yourselves itself, and we appreciate you for being here with us today. So, what we want to do is thank all of our listeners that have been a part of us, and we are asking if you guys want more information and learn more about what we have. We do have everything on our website at www.tdj equitylc.net. Until next time, you all take care and you all have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

See you everybody. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

We hope you enjoyed this episode of TDJ Equity Funding Insiders Podcast. If you'd like to be a guest or get in touch with us, please visit our website at TDJquityLLC.net. Forward slash podcast, or email us at podcast at TDJ Equity Funding Insiders.net. Until next time, take care.